Ageism
One of the most difficult things I’ve had to deal with since I started working in this industry is my age. I experience age discrimination much more than I experience any form of sex discrimination.
It’s not easy starting out if you’re under 21. Here are some examples of barriers I’ve met since starting out, and am still experiencing:
- I wanted to ask people for help when I was 14 and learning about web design, but I was too scared because of all the negative comments I read on forums in response to young people asking questions. This later spurred me on to create Scrunchup.
- My first geek meetup in a pub when I was 17. I had to bring fake ID.
- I couldn’t get a job after leaving school because employers don’t like hiring 18 year olds, despite their capabilities (which is why I went freelance).
- When I was 19, I turned up at a book club that was held in an over 21s bar and couldn’t get in so I had to go home.
- Next year is the first year I can go to SXSW. The cost of the ticket, flights and accommodation exceed £1,000, and as you have to be over 21 to get into any pubs in the US, I didn’t want to be sulking in my hotel room every evening unable to join in with the social events. You would not believe what torture it is reading tweets about how great it is every year.
- When I was freelancing, I did a pitch to a law firm. They said my ideas were better and less expensive than the other guy who had pitched, but that the MD wouldn’t feel comfortable working with someone so young, so I didn’t get the job.
So it’s no wonder that the A List Apart survey for 2009 shows 47.1% of web designers aged 18 or under believe there is an age bias.
When I interviewed Nick and David who set up Upload Robots when they were in 5th grade, I asked them whether they thought their age has been a help or a hinderance to their work.
I think that it was both a hindrance and a benefit to the project. Being so young, VC backing was not an option as it’s too risky to invest in a couple highschoolers. We also have to constantly conceal our age because we are dealing with people’s important documents, and they might not trust us because people, including ourselves, are inherently ageist.
In a lot of online games, women will choose a gender neutral username or character to avoid abuse and judgement from other players. It’s very sad that people in the real world should have to conceal their age so that people take them seriously. We have a lot of young people in this industry (1.7% are 18 or under according to the A List Apart Survey, which is almost 2 in 100), and I imagine that number will increase over the next few years.
I’ve experienced age bias a lot more since I started speaking. I’ve also experienced a lot more sexist comments directed at me, but that doesn’t bother me as much because there are so many people who are aware of it and will call them out on it.
What frustrates me the most is that there are people who won’t even bother to listen to what I’m talking about, and will judge purely on appearances. When I published my talk on my experience of web design being taught in the curriculum, I had people criticising me for trying to “fix everything”, but the last lines of my talk are “I don’t know how to fix this”. I was just presenting a problem, and at this stage I’m not offering solutions because I don’t know what they are.
I’m trying to keep a positive mind, after all, these are problems that will go away as I get older. Also, it can sometimes help because it makes people remember you, as I wrote about in a post called Iron Lung last year. I’m just frustrated on behalf of everyone who is starting out young and having to experience what I have gone through. We need to be concious that there are some very young people doing web design, and that judging them on stereotypes is unacceptable.
There are some great people doing amazing things, and they deserve the opportunity to talk about them without the fear of discrimination. There’s Matt Mullenweg who set up WordPress before he was old enough to buy a drink in his country. James Proud who I met when he was 18, and he’d set up this amazing site called Giglocator. Joe Holdcroft, also 18, who is the senior developer where I work. Nick and David set up Upload Robots who we interviewed for Scrunchup. The best thing is, none of them conform to any of the negative stereotypes associated with young developers.
About Anna Debenham
Anna is a Front End Developer who lives in Brighton, and set up Scrunchup in 2009.
Tags
Related Stuff
No related posts.
Comments
Skip to comment formJoe Holdcroft
Interesting. I was surprised to see negative feedback presented in that manner: with nothing to really back it up, as far as I could see! But I guess there will always be negativity from some people if what you’re doing is getting a decent amount of attention. It’s a good sign.
As a footnote to one of your bullets at the start of your article:
“I couldn’t get a job after leaving school because employers don’t like hiring 18 year olds, despite their capabilities (which is why I went freelance).”
This seems to often be the case, but not always. As you know, at Message we are after young talented people (http://message.uk.com/work-at-message). I hope there are other companies out there with the same kind of mindset. It seems like a no-brainer to me, employers should be jumping at the chance to get hold of these candidates.
Nick Cammarata
I really enjoyed this article, and I wish I had been able to read it a few years ago.(I’m the Upload Robots co-founder)
Another interesting point to consider is how many young people never mention their age. When I was 15, I was hired to remotely create and install an intranet system for a well known security company. I never told them my age, but I wonder what their response would have been if I had after finishing the job.
However, when I told adults I knew about the project while I was doing it, every response was along the line of “that’s a fun hobby”.
To other young web people reading this: if you’re younger than 16, hide your age, you aren’t going to be able to convince anyone you’re not playing with notepad and MS Paint. If you’re a bit older, show it, and people will be impressed.
There are companies that will treat you like an adult like the post above mine, so don’t be afraid to apply to a job.
Ewan
Hi Anna. It was a shame to see those types of comments. I took a job in the industry when I was 16 and have been with the same company for over 5 years now. I think I have been fortunate in not coming across any similar situation though, my colleagues are all pretty accepting and supportive (as I’m sure yours are too)
As Joe said, employers should be jumping at the chance to grab young people with motivation, talent and enthusiasm. They can nurture them and generally I don’t think it takes too much to get the best out of them. It’s their own naivety (and immaturity) that will ultimately be their loss.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much :)
Pete Barnett
Many people associate age with experience, but the web moves so quickly that this only holds up when you’re constantly pushing your own skills further.
Some industries change very little in comparison, and most people make decisions based on their own understanding.
Sounds like the staff in the law firm example were acting entirely on fixed knowledge of the boss’ views, which no argument could change. Still, I wonder if the boss himself could be convinced had he been directly involved.
I’m a 26 year old developer who looks a lot younger. I’m told that’s a good thing, but when it comes to business, it can be difficult when someone has already made a judgement.
John Robinson
Nick said above “To other young web people reading this: if you’re younger than 16, hide your age, you aren’t going to be able to convince anyone you’re not playing with notepad and MS Paint. If you’re a bit older, show it, and people will be impressed.”
I think that’s counter productive if we want to help combat age bias. The only way to build respect for the younger age group is for them to prove that they’re capable. Hiding the problem is not going to make it go away. You might lose a few clients/roles in the short term, but that’s a risk you’re going to have to take if you want to fight for the greater good.
mikeal
I worked at little local startups when I was 16 & 17, they couldn’t find anyone in the small town I was in and were excited to pay someone so little.
When I was 18 I moved to a proper tech city and had a resume that just omitted an education section and focused on experience and a long “skills” section which was mostly stuff I had learned on my own and through open source development.
Every job I had from 18-21 assumed I was much older than I was. In the USA you aren’t legally allowed to ask an applicant their age and after I was hired people couldn’t believe I was that young.
I was lucky because I didn’t look young for my age and I could let people’s assumptions run rampant but I would have had a really hard time starting out if that wasn’t the case.
Jamie Knight
Hiya Anna,
I find it very upsetting that people have reacted to your talks in that way, also very worrying! I have been working in the industry since I was 14 and the ageism was a huge issue when I started, as time goes on it does seem to be improving but not at the rate I would nave hoped for.
Part of the issue is that as an industry there are a lot of people out doing bad work and passing it off as good work. Most clients sadly won’t know the difference :( as an industry having some form of client education (some thing like gas safe for example) would be very helpful!
One issue with being under 16 is contract law. Many areas of contract law require you to be 18 (eg not a legal minor) before you can legally sign. This could lead to enforceability issues (eg purchasing hosting, client contracts etc). Not to mention the issues regarding recovering debts etc.
To finish on a positive note, I have found the industry on the whole to be very open, in terms of age, disability, sexuality etc people tend to be very open. / positive on the whole. There is certainly room for improvement though!
Hope that helps
Jamie + Lion
Vicky
First up, I have to take my hat off to those web designers young enough to have these issues of ageism (I didn’t even find out about web design and the like until I was 20, so between that and looking a lot older than I really am avoided a lot of these issues).
The web community lock-outs: ah, the alcohol problem. Unfortunately a huge number of web meetups revolve around a beer rather than a coffee (which would avoid the 18/21 issues). While it’s an inadvertent mistake, it does raise a good point – why can’t more of the events be all-ages or at least take into account that people who are underage might want to come? In my hometown of NZ, a then-16-year old student set up a local version of Barcamp in 2006 at his high school. An open (and free event), it’s been a huge success. (Though people sometimes forgot that Ludwig was underage when they suggested drinks afterwards!)
Employees and clients: a former boss set up his own design business when he was 28 and swears his age went against him until he was in his mid 30s! The only thing someone can do (other than looking older) is by being utterly convincing in terms of experience (with as many work examples as possible, articulate, and confident). David Karp is amazing in terms of being able to ‘wear’ his experience in a way that makes you forget about his age.
Finally: I’m sad to see how the backstream at conferences seems to bring out the immature flamer mentality. 140 characters isn’t enough space for constructive criticism. It’d be interesting to see whether the flamers had achieved anything near what Anna had at her age ….
Lee Theobald
I have to give them a little respect for at least telling you that was the problem but it still doesn’t make it right.
For the few people complaining about your presentation – don’t worry about it Anna. People always find it easier to post negative comments than positive ones. There is bound to be a greater number of people that enjoyed your talk but just didn’t pipe up. Finally I always find that the people that do bitch & moan don’t have the balls to get up there in front of a load of people and do that themselves. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it and all that.
Now I must admit, I do think there are areas that I would be a little anxious trusting a younger person with straight off the bat. None of this revolves around technical knowledge though. As mentioned in other comments, our field changes so fast it’s fair game regardless of your age. For me it’s the things that you only learn by making the mistakes in the first place: communication, avoid office politics and all the silly faff like that. Would that stop me giving a person a job though? Hell no. We’ve all got to learn somewhere after all. But I might ease them into that part slowly or ask to double check a few important emails with clients first. But I’m only 28 and I’m not in a position where I hire people, so this is all opinion, but maybe some companies aren’t ready to take that hit at the moment. With the recession I do hear a lot more companies that just want someone to come in, do the job and they don’t have to worry about. Not a good attitude to have mind.
My advice for someone young looking for that first job is to stay away from the big companies. A smaller local company is much more likely to take a chance of someone young & talented then a big company that has to go through 5 levels of management before agreeing to hire someone. You’ll also get a lot more experience from working at that small company as you’ll probably get a good taste for all parts of the business. Plus you’re young – you’ll get your chance to take a shot at the big boys later in life. Plus if someone turns you down because of your age, was that really the kind of company you wanted to be associated with anyway?
Virginia
I looked at this post eagerly because I thought it was going to be about older people, not young people. I just wanted to comment that I experience the same problem at the other end of the age spectrum.
I’ve been to SXSW numerous times (going again this year and hope to say hello to you there) and find that I’m pretty much invisible in most situations where mixing and networking are going on.
Andy Wickes
It’s always easy for people to knock the efforts of others without actually offering anything by way of a counter argument – shame really. If this industry teaches us anything it’s that the ‘young’ are shaping this as much (if not more) than anyone else.
Well done for being brave enough to put your head above the parapet.
Andy Budd
While I understand that it must be hard for people trying to kick-start a career at such a young age, I don’t think this is specific to the web design industry. In fact I think society is more comfortable with the stereotype of the technical wunderkind than they are with most other vocations. If anything, I think the web gives you a level of distance and anonymity that makes it much easier to pick up work than in other industries.
If truth be told, I think most people find it difficult in the early stages of their careers, whatever their profession. Age can be seen as an issue for employers, but this is usually just a short cut for experience. So the first thing you need to do is clearly unpick age from commercial experience. For instance at the moment I’m seeing a lot of people in their late twenties and early thirties having the same problems as you’ve described breaking into the UX Industry. Age clearly isn’t the issue there, but demonstrable experience is.
[Incidentally the majority of the issues you list in your bullet points are really social or legal issues and nothing to do with ageism.]
The ability to sell yourself whatever the perceived objections is a key business skill and one you have to learn over time. So it’s your job to dismiss these blockers or better still, turn them into positives. If potential employers are worried about a lack of experience you need to build up a really strong portfolio, a fantastic list of testimonials and a great elevator pitch which explains why picking a younger developer is actually a great move. So it’s important not to mistake an inability to effectively promote oneself with ageism.
Now I’m sure you and your readers won’t appreciate this next comment, but experience does play an important part in our industry and it’s inextricably linked to age. Malcome Gladwell posits the idea that you need 10,000 hours of experience to achieve mastery in a field and this equates to around 10 years. So while it’s possible for a 18 year old to have amassed this level of technical knowledge, it’s much more likely in a 28 year old and even more so in a 38 year old. As such it’s hardly surprising that employers tend to favour older candidates.
If we’re talking purely about technical abilities, that would be one thing. However most employers are looking for softer, interpersonal skills which generally can’t be taught and instead have to be learned through years of working with people. So it’s very easy for people to fixate on the technical skills that they have, without realising that some of these softer skills are lacking.
The good news is that, unlike other forms of discrimination, your particular form of “ageism” is temporary. Most of the folks I know at the top of the industry didn’t start until their mid twenties. By the time you and most of your readers are that age, you will already have had 10 years commercial experience. So like everybody in this industry you’re going to have to pay your sues and work your way up the ranks. However when you do, you’ll get there at a much younger age and have a much longer career ahead of you.
Personally I think you’ve already done an amazing job with your career and your age doesn’t appear to be holding you back. People always seem to excel when they have barriers to climb, so if anything I see your age as one of the reasons for your success. So you should carry it as a banner rather than lean on it as a crutch. You may blame your youthfulness now, but you’ll be lamenting it’s passing soon enough.
Dan
Good post Anna.
I think, as someone that’s seen a couple of your talks that all you’ve talked about is your own experiences and perception of possible problems with aspects of the education system. You’ve never proclaimed to be an authority or someone presenting all the answers. It’s easy to snipe through Twitter – you don’t need facts.
It’d also be easy for everyone here to agree completely with what you’re saying and be seen as cronyism – you can’t win with everyone. Keep doing what you’re doing. People older than you can and do talk about the education stuff but you’re someone that has recent experience of the education system in relation to web design so your perspective is not only valid but interesting! I know what IT stuff was like taught when I was at school & college but that was ages ago, pre-web. I’d hoped that with the web in the classroom, things might’ve moved on…
There’ll be ill informed people bitching all the time. Don’t let it bother you, however hard that might be.
Joel
Nice article, like @Virginia I thought this was going to be about the other end of the age spectrum!
@Andy Budd – picking up on the idea that you need ~10,000 hours to be an ‘expert’…
Say one person starts learning web-design at age 14, and another at age 25. The 14 year old (who has much more spare time) will clock up those 10,000 hours much faster than the 25 year old. Say – for argument’s sake – the 14 year old takes 5 years to put in the 10,000 hours, and the 25 year old takes 10 years. Not only will the younger person become an expert more quickly, but when they do become an expert, their knowledge and experience will be more up-to-date (all learned in the last 5 years, as opposed to the last 10).
So I think that automatically assuming a younger person has less experience – in an industry an dynamic as this one – is a dangerous game!
@Anna – your story about the law firm. Unfortunately people in large or established companies will often go for the “safe” choice, even if it’s obviously not as good – that way, if things go wrong, it’s less likely that the person who hired you (or the other person) will lose their job. If you’re very young, the same principle will put you at a disadvantage when going for many jobs. Ultimately it’s their loss – the risk-averse culture turns the company into a really boring place to work, with a sub-standard website :)
Steve
A very good article. I’ve seen this form of ageism since I started in web development years ago. Thankfully I’m seeing less of it at the moment, but I think that’s more to do with the company I work with than anything else. My boss is in his early 20s, and people are always surprised when they first meet him in person. I was myself. But he’s probably the most capable boss I’ve ever worked with. Age shouldn’t be a factor, but it is.
There is also the flip side of this which I’m starting to experience, being the ripe old age of 36. People think that seeing as I’m still in the game after all this time I must be a guru, I’m not. I keep learning and keep having to learn to keep up with my younger colleagues. And it’s great. The energy and enthusiasm they have for something I was getting jaded with is amazing, and has started rubbing off on me.
Advice I’d give to all those who judge first on age, stop it. Get off your stuck in a rut arse and meet these people, they’ve got a lot more to offer you than you have to them.
Edd Sowden
The other problem with learning web development at a young age is that most employers are looking for people with X number of years ‘commercial’ experience. When I tried to get my first job in the web-development industry I had been making web sites for 7 years but yet they discount all of that as none of it was ‘commercial’. Still now I get flack from my colleges who keep reminding me that I have very little ‘commercial’ experience even though I can easily out perform them at our actual job.
Yasith Vidanaarachchi
Totally dude, didn’t read through the articles, but I know that the age factor does matter when you’re on the job hunt, and you have to stick to freelancing this does suck. Is there any community/IRC channel for young developers that you know of ? Having a community would be great.
Mark
And as soon as you get in a position to be interviewing people, you’ll be ageist against older people. And then a few short years after that, you’ll get to experience how young people discriminate against you for being older than them. It never ends.
curmudgeonly troll
Gotta pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues, and you know it don’t come easy.
jon
Great post. Back when I was doing web strategy at Microsoft, I looked a lot at the ageism in the company and the industry as a whole in both directions — youth and seniors are regularly dismissed and ignored. Especially in the tech world, those of you who have grown up in the mobile/web bring an incredible amount to the table. Sure, there’s a lot of value to experience; but too many older people over-value it and then proceed to ignore the very relevant experiences a lot of younger folks have.
Jamie makes a good point about contract law potentially being a problem. Are there “best practices” (and perhaps even sample corporate structure and contract agreements) to help work around this?
Jem
I had to work for free to break into the industry, but I don’t think that was as much to do with age as it was experience. Employers don’t like hiring people with limited experience, and thus people find it hard to actually *get* the experience. This is not limited to web design/dev though, not by a long shot.
That aside, the negative twitter remarks don’t surprise me. Lots of people don’t like others who’re doing better/going further/getting more attention than they are. You get used to it (sadly).
Kara Chaney
Thank you for sharing. I want to share someone insight in return. I certainly understand what it’s like to be the young professional and not be taken seriously by people or even worse, have people threatened by your youth and the fact that you are bringing fresh ideas to the table. Being professionally and/or creatively aggressive can be a blessing and a curse at all stages.
With that said…I’m now 33 and have learned some lessons that I wish older people had shared with me.
1. Younger people truly do have so much to share and I love seeing what comes out everyday. We ALL benefit from knowing that bringing age and experience together with youth and new ideas can create great things that can be well rounded and appreciated by broader audiences. Stay open minded and listen intently and you will go far.
2. In your article you mention – “fix everything”, but the last lines of my talk are “I don’t know how to fix this”. I was just presenting a problem, and at this stage I’m not offering solutions because I don’t know what they are.”– I’m learning that it’s all about approach and I know…cliché. I still struggle with this because I’m passionate about finding solutions, which I gather that you are too. Passion for finding solutions is a good thing, but it can get in the way of my approach if not careful. I would share with you – Don’t quit sharing your ideas, but when you share keep mind that if you see a problem, DO bring a solution…or three.
Good job on the site and I look forward to following your work. I’m new to the web field and have much to learn. My background is fine art, but I love this stuff and am trying to immerse myself in all of it.
Happy holidays – Kara Chaney
Chris
Sorry to hear about your experience.
Ageism is wrong, plain and simple. Whether it discriminates against the young (using the “too young”, or “inexperience” excuses), or alternatively in Young Entrepreneurs groups who restrict membership below age 30.
Hope you agree that ageism is unjustifiable, and should be discouraged if society is to thrive on the contribution of all its citizens.
Kelly Sutton
I’ll chime in here. I started HackCollege when I was 19 and spent 2 years sneaking into events. It sucks.
That being said, you earn a lot more respect and put yourself head and shoulders above everyone else by making the effort. There were many nights that sucked and were spent sulking at things like SXSW, but it’s been worth it.
yachris
Hey — sorry to hear about your negative experiences. Congratulations on working through them, rather than giving up!
We’re set, where I work, to go the other way; we had the president of our division recently state that “Our average age is 38, which is too old.” Hmmm…. if the “average” person works here from exiting college at 23 to 67, the average “should” be about… 45. Those of us _somewhat past_ 38 believe the message is that we’re too expensive, and should leave.
I guess perhaps you should expect to get some different ageism in a few decades :-)
Barbara
I am one of the youngest where I work and often get the feeling that people don’t feel like I know anything because I am young. I’m 27, so I can only imagine what it is like for you. I think a lot of people assume experience comes with age, but it’s not always the case, especially in the design world.
You’re very talented and it’s sad you have to go through this. Continue to do what you’re doing and know it will get better.
Ageism in the Web Industry | Web Design Northamptonshire
[...] Visit Link: http://scrunchup.com/article/ageism/ [...]
NatalieMac
Anna – I don’t believe that this sort of ageism is restricted to the web industry. As I recall, it was rampant when I was in your age bracket(and the web didn’t even exist yet) and I had a tough time getting people to pay me for work and finding jobs. I distinctly remember more than one potential employer actually laughing at me when I handed over a resume or job application. It didn’t help any that I looked younger than I actually was. I was turned away by a Las Vegas roulette dealer when I was 22 because he insisted I had a fake ID.
I think that what’s probably happening is that many people are remembering how irresponsible and flaky they themselves were when they were younger, and they can’t fathom that a young person could be serious and dependable. If I remember my high school and college years correctly, I was definitely in the minority in that respect. I remember getting angry and feeling frustrated when my peers acted immaturely, because I saw that they were only making things harder for me. Now that whole situation might be even worse with all these crazy reality shows putting up outrageous, irresponsible behavior on the television for everyone to see all the time.
It’s unfortunate, to be sure, that so many are missing out on the talents of young people. I think that ultimately, if you just keep doing good work and building a great reputation for yourself, that will ultimately outweigh any preconceived notions people might have about you.
Rick Wolff
I’m 53, a designer, and already put out to pasture. Cry me a river, kid.
Harry
I experience ageism of a different sort: I’m 51 years old, and have been doing web design for 15 years. Most employers, however, are looking for younger folks, so at an age where I should have had a lot of opportunities due to my experience, I’m overlooked due to a perception that young people are better at this kind of work. So I guess there’s a sweet spot in the range of 19-44 years old where most of the hiring takes place. Welcome to the world!
Cosmin Negoita
I’m 16 years old, that doesn’t mean I can’t be professional. All I need is dedication, practice and patience…
Trevor Tye
Hi Anna, This has also been my experience, but buck up things will get better it just takes time. It’s also gets true as you get older, people assume you don’t know what trends are coming up and what the next big thing will be. Really when it comes to jobs, proposals, and contracts; it’s about who you know. Start networking!
NonProfit
I can’t say that it’s not an issue, but it seems there is likely less of a factor than in some other industries. After all, your code, be it good or bad, speaks for itself. Perhaps this will inspire you to further greatness: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/03/drupalcon-dc.html
Tomáš Lištiak
Experience is very important. And it takes some time to gain valuable experience. Don’t try to be the first, but try to be the best…
Matt
If you read this post in 5 years, you’ll likely think to yourself “Wow, I was immature.” Trust me on this one. I’ve been in your position.
There’s nothing wrong with age discrimination. It’s something you have to deal with. Whether you’re perceived as “too old” or “too young” for something, the only thing you can do is prove otherwise. Complaining about it and calling it “ageism” will get you nowhere.
yeahyeah
In a world where I see talented designers being shoved to the side because they’re in their 40s and don’t look quite as cool as a 22 year old, I kinda chuckle a bit at all this “wah Im young and I got all my life ahead of me” talk. I’m still in my 20s so I’m not suffering from older age discrimination yet but from everything I’ve seen, web design (and graphic design in general) is percieved as a “young person” career.
Shellie Anne
Every industry has this stigma.
I am an innkeeper and am asked if I inherited this house, to which I reply “No, we have a mortgage.” (In other words, we worked hard to buy the house and operate it)
I was also asked the other day “Have you ever heard of twitter?” by a younger guest.
My husband works in I.T. (hardware side) so everyone assumes he does the marketing and web “stuff” for our business. HE doesn’t know twitter. haha
So I have blond hair, discriminated against, I am younger than the average innkeeper, discriminated against, I am female – therefore the man must do the web “stuff” discriminated against.
KEEP ON FIGHTIN’ THE GOOD FIGHT! NOBODY CAN STOP YA!
Brett
I am currently a web student and I have been in and out of the industry since I was in grade 11 (16). I do agree and I enjoyed this article a lot. I don’t want to say to much because I have not yet witnessed any of your talks (although I plan to try to sometime) I agree with you, that we aren’t taken as seriously as we should be. At the same time too, we have to give them a reason to take us seriously.
@anyone that is on the other age of the spectrum:
Yes, designers are losing their jobs now (not a large rate but slowly). But if you are going to be a designer and want to take that job with you to your grave you have to get out there and either a) be amazing and partially legendary with your designing, doing stuff that no one has done before or b) get a contract with a company that will keep you until you are ready to retire. And then, freelance if at all possible.
I have major respect for anyone 50+ and 18- that is working in this industry and doing well. Kudos to them.
PS: Code and design is the way to go soon. With html5 on its way (okay maybe 20 years away from being standardized but still) people are going to want people that can code and design. Either that or learn lots of php/javascript since CSS3 and HTML5 are both going to hang on jQuery and javascript.
Enough code babbling and predictions of the future :P
I enjoyed this article and I enjoy you Anna. Add me on twitter if you want to contact me.
Michael McWatters
Anna,
I am sad to report that ageism exists both ways in our industry. Now that I’ve crossed that invisible line into my 40s, I can sense the change in attitudes toward me. “He must be out-of-date; he’s probably not up on the latest technologies; he won’t work the long hours or for the pay a younger employee would. Etc.”
As always, the only thing you can do — the best thing you can do — is prove them wrong. And you will.
Michael
Ignacio Segura
Funny, I was expecting the opposite view in this article. That is, I am 34 years old and I work as a freelancer developer (Drupal and all this…), and I feel quite old, you know, a new technology every three weeks and all that.
Anyway, I feel your pain. I also work as volleyball coach, and I’ve met 13 years-old geniuses limited by their narrow-minded school mates, teachers and parents, and on the other side, 25 years-old dudes that shouldn’t even drive. It sucks when you’re at the “clever side of the line”, so to say.
Kayla
I understand this all too well. I started freelancing when I was 15, and it was tough to get gigs. Sometimes I didn’t get jobs because I just wasn’t what they were looking for, but a lot of the time I was told directly it was because of my age. (Not just when I was 15–incredibly young–but also when I got as old as 18, ,19, 20, …and yes, I still don’t win over some clients just because I’m now only 21.)
Fortunately I never had any meet-ups or events in bars to go to…I never even thought of that as a huge problem1 I suppose that’s one benefit of starting off in a small town, I worked mostly online because there’s just not a lot of business (particularly online/technical business) here.
Pam
Sorry it has been such a rough trot for you. Some people seem to think that all web developers/designers/wranglers are males in their twenties and thirties, and any one else is just plain off. I have the opposite problem to you in terms of age. I am too old to be taken seriously. I am in the process of leaving my teaching job after 35 years. I have good web skills but no one will look at employing me because I don’t fit the stereotype. I remember writing an essay about stereotypes when I was about 13. Sad that so little has changed in over 4 decades :(
JC
The best and the most productive employee I had during my managerial times was a 16-year old pal. He was awesome with JavaME, and now he is awesome with programming for XBOX.
But you do not worry, those old farts will die soon, and you will become one to chase youngsters.
Paul Johnson
I am an old fart, nearly 40, responsible for a team of developers in Manchester, UK. I am happy to employ young staff, qualifications don’t matter to me. I can think of several staff I have engaged under 20 who have outshone older counterparts.
I recently employed a young graduate who on paper had nothing to offer. To many he would have been a risk but from his blog and evidence of work in his own time he clearly had a talent and needed a chance. I gave him the opportunity and indeed have had to let go older recruits who were hired on the same day.
It is not age that counts, it is talent, enthusiasm and commitment. If you are embarking on a career, show you are interested by keeping your blog up to date, illustrate that you are passionate about the business, emit authority and knowledge. College and University certificates are all well and good but you can learn so much more off your own back.
Ageism in the Web Industry | Feed2
[...] Visit Link: http://scrunchup.com/article/ageism/ [...]
tiffany stone
I would give anything to be too young rather than too old, as is my case. You have the benefit of having more years to gain more experience and thus ultimately by the time you are my age, more successful. Believe me, being too young is a plight you’ll grow out of. You really are the lucky one
jon
The Hacker News discussion of this thread had some great examples of ageist attitudes. I blogged about it here.
Looking at the comments here, one thing that always surprises me is when older people who are victims of ageism in the other direction are so unsympathetic to youth — “cry me a river, kid” being a particularly egregious example. Yes, the tech industry [like many others] has huge issues with discrimination against people in their 40s and older. But isn’t the right reaction to notice that we’re on the same side here and look to work together?
Jeremy Hutchings
Two of the original vBulletin developers were barely out of their teens when working on it. I dare say talking with your work is the better option.
Suleiman Leadbitter
Anna, I’ll be honest I was quite surprised at first when reading this. I have always worked with people based on their skill set and talent. I’m 33 and only decided to go into web design three years ago after quitting illustration (another story for another day). I however feel like I need to push harder and harder every day. Time is ticking very quickly for myself, most people have about 15 years on me. I have a wife and four children so time isn’t exactly free to work on various projects that I would prefer to do. As being older usually means more settled and more commitments.
What I’m getting at is that whilst it is sad that people treat you that way (I have employed various young talents in the past and love watching them grow and succeed, so I don’t understand it really) you will however grow into your role, you have something to get too. I’m just some old fart that is getting older and greyer as the days pass.
I have seen you progress over the last year or so and I won’t lie, I have been envious of your drive and success. I will also say that in all my years, there will always be arsehole that pull you down, whether it’s your age, sex, race, accent, ability, disability, whatever. I even have people treat me different just because I have a dodgy lazy eye, I kid you not.
Don’t let it get to you. Anyone. Just keep pushing.
Amber Weinberg
Ive been coding since middle school and have been freelancing since I was 20. Now that I’m 24, it’s been a lot better in terms of ageism, but I still tend to get comments on both my sex and age. I don’t think it goes away until our 40s, but then they’ll be calling us too old. I just try to ignore the trolls and continue on. If you’re not getting hate mail, you’re doing it wrong. ;)
AhmedAG
i like your theme its clean and simple! keep it up!
John Clarke
Anna, people that are negative towards you see you as a threat. I.e. the more there are, the better, as you are showing them that you are better and can do what they can do just as well :)
Personally, been at it since the age of 12, and I am 26 going 27 now. Don’t stop, ever. Push harder, and show them that you will be the next big thing … in half the time it took them ;)
Friday Focus 11/26/10: My Illustrated Self | Devlounge
[...] – Ageism “One of the most difficult things I’ve had to deal with since I started working in this [...]
Bob Tulloch
The article was interesting and the comments even more so. Ageism is obviously alive and well everywhere, even among the young e.g. ‘old farts’ ‘old trolls’ in some of the comments. The technology behind the web is moving so fast that age/experience is almost irrelevant. Someone who has been doing the same thing for three years, really has only six months experience repeated six times. It is the ability to absorb new techniques and apply them productively that counts. This ability is independent of age.
It also amuses me to hear those in the late 30′s/early 40′s claiming to be ‘put out to pasture’. I am the technical half of a company whose main income derives from subscriptions to a data driven web site. Its been through three technical iterations and is about to go through a fourth, using the latest relevant techniques. Even so, it still pulls in six figures annually.
I am 62 – unemployable and almost universally ignored by the young technocrats. On the other hand, I don’t care. I just keep doing what I like best, doing as well as I can and making as much money as I can lay hands on.
Matthew Fowles
Have to say i totally agree there is such a biased nature about it all. I’m currently trying to get started in the industry after years of studying and find it so hard for anyone to give me a chance! I wish you the best of luck though
Chris Kempt
Hi Anna, hope you’re keeping well?
I’m really sorry you feel like this, as I believe I told you when you worked for us, I was very impressed by your abilities, application and attitude. I can’t speak for anyone else but, if we’d had a job opening at the time I wouldn’t have hesitated in giving it to you and personally, if there’s one thing I’m not is ageist. As I said at the school I spoke at the other day, the young have a massive advantage over the old in our industry. I have to work at understanding new developments and increasingly, to overcome the prejudices (against certain technologies) that I built up when I started my career 12 years ago. The young however, they understand this stuff innately… it won’t be long before I am depreciated!
Anyway… chin up… after all being freelance has its perks – particularly if you’re head-strong, confident, talented, intellegent and perhaps a little tiny bit stubborn :O)
Hope life is good otherwise.
Cheers
C
Julie Oakley
My heart bleeds, ageism is wrong, but you’ll soon grow out of being too young. Older victims of ageism don’t have that to look forward to.
contract web developer
you’re actually a good webmaster. The website loading speed is incredible. It kind of feels that you’re doing any distinctive trick. Furthermore, The contents are masterpiece. you’ve performed a fantastic process on this topic!
Ashley Rushworth
I totally agree with pretty much everything here. I’m under 16 and find it very hard to find help, when I ask on forums (they seem reasonable questions to ask and in the same kind of format as everybody else) I always get responses that treat me like a child!
There are some people that are very helpful and aren’t ageism in anyway shape or form. But then, I found that you feel like you are pestering them with your questions, so you stop asking them to that person. Then you have to wait to find somebody else who is helpful.
essay, research, thesis, academic writting services
Fantastic post, very informative. I wonder why the opposite experts of this sector do not understand this. You should continue your writing. I’m confident, you have a huge readers’ base already!|What’s Going down i am new to this, I stumbled upon this I have discovered It positively helpful and it has helped me out loads. I am hoping to give a contribution & assist other customers like its helped me. Great job.
Herma
I’ve learned some important things as a result of your post. I’d also like to express that there may be situation where you will obtain a loan and don’t need a co-signer such as a Federal Student Support Loan. However, if you are getting credit through a traditional banker then you need to be made ready to have a co-signer ready to assist you. The lenders may base their own decision using a few components but the greatest will be your credit rating. There are some creditors that will as well look at your work history and make a decision based on that but in most cases it will hinge on your report.
Jim Walsh
Ageism isn’t something that is exclusive to the web development and design community. Still today in my corporate job ageism affects me to this day and I’m 32.
It is entirely generational too. Once you have Gen X/Y’ers running companies you’ll see more and more companies going after younger talent, doing what it can to keep them, allowing things like remote work access more often than their older contemporaries do today.
If you are interested in something and are young, continue to work on it. People will notice and you will get your opportunity, but expect to have to put in some amount of time as well.
jobs for 14 year olds
Hiya very cool web site!! Guy .. Excellent .. Wonderful .. I will bookmark your website and take the feeds additionally?I’m glad to find numerous helpful info here within the put up, we’d like develop more techniques on this regard, thanks for sharing. . . . . .
真人荷官
Thank you, I’ve just been looking for information approximately this subject for ages and yours is the greatest I’ve came upon till now. But, what in regards to the conclusion? Are you certain in regards to the supply?|What i don’t realize is in reality how you are no longer actually a lot more smartly-favored than you might be now. You are very intelligent.
If you need ecommerce hosting services look here.
Definitely believe that which you stated. Your favourite justification seemed to be at the web the easiest factor to consider of. I say to you, I certainly get irked whilst folks think about worries that they plainly don’t understand about. You controlled to hit the nail upon the highest as smartly as defined out the entire thing without having side-effects , other people could take a signal. Will likely be back to get more. Thank you
FutureFaces NYC
I am really inspired with your writing skills as smartly as with the layout to your blog. Is that this a paid topic or did you customize it your self? Either way stay up the excellent quality writing, it?s uncommon to see a great blog like this one nowadays..
Leave a Reply