Custom IDX Solutions

Couldn’t respond as I’m not on twitter. P.s. thanks for setting the type attr of those fields correctly — so few sites do it I’m actually surprised when I come across a site that does.

It is entirely generational too. Once you have Gen X/Y’ers running companies you’ll see more and more companies going after younger talent, doing what it can to keep them, allowing things like remote work access more often than their older contemporaries do today.

If you are interested in something and are young, continue to work on it. People will notice and you will get your opportunity, but expect to have to put in some amount of time as well.

[…] … great article that everyone should read […]…

There are some people that are very helpful and aren’t ageism in anyway shape or form. But then, I found that you feel like you are pestering them with your questions, so you stop asking them to that person. Then you have to wait to find somebody else who is helpful.

I’m really sorry you feel like this, as I believe I told you when you worked for us, I was very impressed by your abilities, application and attitude. I can’t speak for anyone else but, if we’d had a job opening at the time I wouldn’t have hesitated in giving it to you and personally, if there’s one thing I’m not is ageist. As I said at the school I spoke at the other day, the young have a massive advantage over the old in our industry. I have to work at understanding new developments and increasingly, to overcome the prejudices (against certain technologies) that I built up when I started my career 12 years ago. The young however, they understand this stuff innately… it won’t be long before I am depreciated!

Anyway… chin up… after all being freelance has its perks – particularly if you’re head-strong, confident, talented, intellegent and perhaps a little tiny bit stubborn :O)

Hope life is good otherwise.

Cheers

C

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Keep it up! I’ll be back for more as time permits.

Thanks!

It’s incredibly important to work off your own back to prove to a prospective employer that you have the drive and ambition they’re looking for. Having qualifications is no way a ticket to getting a job, especially not in this climate. My advice to all school or uni leavers would be to spend at least an hour a week building your own portfolio of your own passions and talents away from the normal stuff everyone else is doing as well.

Thanks,
Sean.

That being said, I can say that I sometimes miss all of the built-in functionality and multi-site management of Dreamweaver but that’s about it. The site-preview mode is a nice idea but was always very laggy, always found I relied of FF/Firebug combo anyways and still do.

Got to agree with you on the rest for sure. Would add Campaign Monitor (email marketing but they let you white-label it) and Syncplicity (for the collaboration) too.

It also amuses me to hear those in the late 30′s/early 40′s claiming to be ‘put out to pasture’. I am the technical half of a company whose main income derives from subscriptions to a data driven web site. Its been through three technical iterations and is about to go through a fourth, using the latest relevant techniques. Even so, it still pulls in six figures annually.

I am 62 – unemployable and almost universally ignored by the young technocrats. On the other hand, I don’t care. I just keep doing what I like best, doing as well as I can and making as much money as I can lay hands on.

Personally, been at it since the age of 12, and I am 26 going 27 now. Don’t stop, ever. Push harder, and show them that you will be the next big thing … in half the time it took them ;)

What I’m getting at is that whilst it is sad that people treat you that way (I have employed various young talents in the past and love watching them grow and succeed, so I don’t understand it really) you will however grow into your role, you have something to get too. I’m just some old fart that is getting older and greyer as the days pass.

I have seen you progress over the last year or so and I won’t lie, I have been envious of your drive and success. I will also say that in all my years, there will always be arsehole that pull you down, whether it’s your age, sex, race, accent, ability, disability, whatever. I even have people treat me different just because I have a dodgy lazy eye, I kid you not.

Don’t let it get to you. Anyone. Just keep pushing.

Looking at the comments here, one thing that always surprises me is when older people who are victims of ageism in the other direction are so unsympathetic to youth — “cry me a river, kid” being a particularly egregious example. Yes, the tech industry [like many others] has huge issues with discrimination against people in their 40s and older. But isn’t the right reaction to notice that we’re on the same side here and look to work together?

I recently employed a young graduate who on paper had nothing to offer. To many he would have been a risk but from his blog and evidence of work in his own time he clearly had a talent and needed a chance. I gave him the opportunity and indeed have had to let go older recruits who were hired on the same day.

It is not age that counts, it is talent, enthusiasm and commitment. If you are embarking on a career, show you are interested by keeping your blog up to date, illustrate that you are passionate about the business, emit authority and knowledge. College and University certificates are all well and good but you can learn so much more off your own back.

Fortunately I never had any meet-ups or events in bars to go to…I never even thought of that as a huge problem1 I suppose that’s one benefit of starting off in a small town, I worked mostly online because there’s just not a lot of business (particularly online/technical business) here.

Anyway, I feel your pain. I also work as volleyball coach, and I’ve met 13 years-old geniuses limited by their narrow-minded school mates, teachers and parents, and on the other side, 25 years-old dudes that shouldn’t even drive. It sucks when you’re at the “clever side of the line”, so to say.

I am sad to report that ageism exists both ways in our industry. Now that I’ve crossed that invisible line into my 40s, I can sense the change in attitudes toward me. “He must be out-of-date; he’s probably not up on the latest technologies; he won’t work the long hours or for the pay a younger employee would. Etc.”

As always, the only thing you can do — the best thing you can do — is prove them wrong. And you will.

Michael

@anyone that is on the other age of the spectrum:
Yes, designers are losing their jobs now (not a large rate but slowly). But if you are going to be a designer and want to take that job with you to your grave you have to get out there and either a) be amazing and partially legendary with your designing, doing stuff that no one has done before or b) get a contract with a company that will keep you until you are ready to retire. And then, freelance if at all possible.

I have major respect for anyone 50+ and 18- that is working in this industry and doing well. Kudos to them.

PS: Code and design is the way to go soon. With html5 on its way (okay maybe 20 years away from being standardized but still) people are going to want people that can code and design. Either that or learn lots of php/javascript since CSS3 and HTML5 are both going to hang on jQuery and javascript.

Enough code babbling and predictions of the future :P

I enjoyed this article and I enjoy you Anna. Add me on twitter if you want to contact me.

I am an innkeeper and am asked if I inherited this house, to which I reply “No, we have a mortgage.” (In other words, we worked hard to buy the house and operate it)

I was also asked the other day “Have you ever heard of twitter?” by a younger guest.
My husband works in I.T. (hardware side) so everyone assumes he does the marketing and web “stuff” for our business. HE doesn’t know twitter. haha

So I have blond hair, discriminated against, I am younger than the average innkeeper, discriminated against, I am female – therefore the man must do the web “stuff” discriminated against.

KEEP ON FIGHTIN’ THE GOOD FIGHT! NOBODY CAN STOP YA!

There’s nothing wrong with age discrimination. It’s something you have to deal with. Whether you’re perceived as “too old” or “too young” for something, the only thing you can do is prove otherwise. Complaining about it and calling it “ageism” will get you nowhere.

I think that what’s probably happening is that many people are remembering how irresponsible and flaky they themselves were when they were younger, and they can’t fathom that a young person could be serious and dependable. If I remember my high school and college years correctly, I was definitely in the minority in that respect. I remember getting angry and feeling frustrated when my peers acted immaturely, because I saw that they were only making things harder for me. Now that whole situation might be even worse with all these crazy reality shows putting up outrageous, irresponsible behavior on the television for everyone to see all the time.

It’s unfortunate, to be sure, that so many are missing out on the talents of young people. I think that ultimately, if you just keep doing good work and building a great reputation for yourself, that will ultimately outweigh any preconceived notions people might have about you.

You’re very talented and it’s sad you have to go through this. Continue to do what you’re doing and know it will get better.

We’re set, where I work, to go the other way; we had the president of our division recently state that “Our average age is 38, which is too old.” Hmmm…. if the “average” person works here from exiting college at 23 to 67, the average “should” be about… 45. Those of us _somewhat past_ 38 believe the message is that we’re too expensive, and should leave.

I guess perhaps you should expect to get some different ageism in a few decades :-)

That being said, you earn a lot more respect and put yourself head and shoulders above everyone else by making the effort. There were many nights that sucked and were spent sulking at things like SXSW, but it’s been worth it.

Ageism is wrong, plain and simple. Whether it discriminates against the young (using the “too young”, or “inexperience” excuses), or alternatively in Young Entrepreneurs groups who restrict membership below age 30.

Hope you agree that ageism is unjustifiable, and should be discouraged if society is to thrive on the contribution of all its citizens.

With that said…I’m now 33 and have learned some lessons that I wish older people had shared with me.

1. Younger people truly do have so much to share and I love seeing what comes out everyday. We ALL benefit from knowing that bringing age and experience together with youth and new ideas can create great things that can be well rounded and appreciated by broader audiences. Stay open minded and listen intently and you will go far.

2. In your article you mention – “fix everything”, but the last lines of my talk are “I don’t know how to fix this”. I was just presenting a problem, and at this stage I’m not offering solutions because I don’t know what they are.”– I’m learning that it’s all about approach and I know…cliché. I still struggle with this because I’m passionate about finding solutions, which I gather that you are too. Passion for finding solutions is a good thing, but it can get in the way of my approach if not careful. I would share with you – Don’t quit sharing your ideas, but when you share keep mind that if you see a problem, DO bring a solution…or three.

Good job on the site and I look forward to following your work. I’m new to the web field and have much to learn. My background is fine art, but I love this stuff and am trying to immerse myself in all of it.

Happy holidays – Kara Chaney

That aside, the negative twitter remarks don’t surprise me. Lots of people don’t like others who’re doing better/going further/getting more attention than they are. You get used to it (sadly).

Jamie makes a good point about contract law potentially being a problem. Are there “best practices” (and perhaps even sample corporate structure and contract agreements) to help work around this?

There is also the flip side of this which I’m starting to experience, being the ripe old age of 36. People think that seeing as I’m still in the game after all this time I must be a guru, I’m not. I keep learning and keep having to learn to keep up with my younger colleagues. And it’s great. The energy and enthusiasm they have for something I was getting jaded with is amazing, and has started rubbing off on me.

Advice I’d give to all those who judge first on age, stop it. Get off your stuck in a rut arse and meet these people, they’ve got a lot more to offer you than you have to them.

@Andy Budd – picking up on the idea that you need ~10,000 hours to be an ‘expert’…

Say one person starts learning web-design at age 14, and another at age 25. The 14 year old (who has much more spare time) will clock up those 10,000 hours much faster than the 25 year old. Say – for argument’s sake – the 14 year old takes 5 years to put in the 10,000 hours, and the 25 year old takes 10 years. Not only will the younger person become an expert more quickly, but when they do become an expert, their knowledge and experience will be more up-to-date (all learned in the last 5 years, as opposed to the last 10).

So I think that automatically assuming a younger person has less experience – in an industry an dynamic as this one – is a dangerous game!

@Anna – your story about the law firm. Unfortunately people in large or established companies will often go for the “safe” choice, even if it’s obviously not as good – that way, if things go wrong, it’s less likely that the person who hired you (or the other person) will lose their job. If you’re very young, the same principle will put you at a disadvantage when going for many jobs. Ultimately it’s their loss – the risk-averse culture turns the company into a really boring place to work, with a sub-standard website :)

I think, as someone that’s seen a couple of your talks that all you’ve talked about is your own experiences and perception of possible problems with aspects of the education system. You’ve never proclaimed to be an authority or someone presenting all the answers. It’s easy to snipe through Twitter – you don’t need facts.

It’d also be easy for everyone here to agree completely with what you’re saying and be seen as cronyism – you can’t win with everyone. Keep doing what you’re doing. People older than you can and do talk about the education stuff but you’re someone that has recent experience of the education system in relation to web design so your perspective is not only valid but interesting! I know what IT stuff was like taught when I was at school & college but that was ages ago, pre-web. I’d hoped that with the web in the classroom, things might’ve moved on…

There’ll be ill informed people bitching all the time. Don’t let it bother you, however hard that might be.

If truth be told, I think most people find it difficult in the early stages of their careers, whatever their profession. Age can be seen as an issue for employers, but this is usually just a short cut for experience. So the first thing you need to do is clearly unpick age from commercial experience. For instance at the moment I’m seeing a lot of people in their late twenties and early thirties having the same problems as you’ve described breaking into the UX Industry. Age clearly isn’t the issue there, but demonstrable experience is.

[Incidentally the majority of the issues you list in your bullet points are really social or legal issues and nothing to do with ageism.]

The ability to sell yourself whatever the perceived objections is a key business skill and one you have to learn over time. So it’s your job to dismiss these blockers or better still, turn them into positives. If potential employers are worried about a lack of experience you need to build up a really strong portfolio, a fantastic list of testimonials and a great elevator pitch which explains why picking a younger developer is actually a great move. So it’s important not to mistake an inability to effectively promote oneself with ageism.

Now I’m sure you and your readers won’t appreciate this next comment, but experience does play an important part in our industry and it’s inextricably linked to age. Malcome Gladwell posits the idea that you need 10,000 hours of experience to achieve mastery in a field and this equates to around 10 years. So while it’s possible for a 18 year old to have amassed this level of technical knowledge, it’s much more likely in a 28 year old and even more so in a 38 year old. As such it’s hardly surprising that employers tend to favour older candidates.

If we’re talking purely about technical abilities, that would be one thing. However most employers are looking for softer, interpersonal skills which generally can’t be taught and instead have to be learned through years of working with people. So it’s very easy for people to fixate on the technical skills that they have, without realising that some of these softer skills are lacking.

The good news is that, unlike other forms of discrimination, your particular form of “ageism” is temporary. Most of the folks I know at the top of the industry didn’t start until their mid twenties. By the time you and most of your readers are that age, you will already have had 10 years commercial experience. So like everybody in this industry you’re going to have to pay your sues and work your way up the ranks. However when you do, you’ll get there at a much younger age and have a much longer career ahead of you.

Personally I think you’ve already done an amazing job with your career and your age doesn’t appear to be holding you back. People always seem to excel when they have barriers to climb, so if anything I see your age as one of the reasons for your success. So you should carry it as a banner rather than lean on it as a crutch. You may blame your youthfulness now, but you’ll be lamenting it’s passing soon enough.

Well done for being brave enough to put your head above the parapet.

I’ve been to SXSW numerous times (going again this year and hope to say hello to you there) and find that I’m pretty much invisible in most situations where mixing and networking are going on.

They said my ideas were better and less expensive than the other guy who had pitched, but that the MD wouldn’t feel comfortable working with someone so young

I have to give them a little respect for at least telling you that was the problem but it still doesn’t make it right.

For the few people complaining about your presentation – don’t worry about it Anna. People always find it easier to post negative comments than positive ones. There is bound to be a greater number of people that enjoyed your talk but just didn’t pipe up. Finally I always find that the people that do bitch & moan don’t have the balls to get up there in front of a load of people and do that themselves. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it and all that.

Now I must admit, I do think there are areas that I would be a little anxious trusting a younger person with straight off the bat. None of this revolves around technical knowledge though. As mentioned in other comments, our field changes so fast it’s fair game regardless of your age. For me it’s the things that you only learn by making the mistakes in the first place: communication, avoid office politics and all the silly faff like that. Would that stop me giving a person a job though? Hell no. We’ve all got to learn somewhere after all. But I might ease them into that part slowly or ask to double check a few important emails with clients first. But I’m only 28 and I’m not in a position where I hire people, so this is all opinion, but maybe some companies aren’t ready to take that hit at the moment. With the recession I do hear a lot more companies that just want someone to come in, do the job and they don’t have to worry about. Not a good attitude to have mind.

My advice for someone young looking for that first job is to stay away from the big companies. A smaller local company is much more likely to take a chance of someone young & talented then a big company that has to go through 5 levels of management before agreeing to hire someone. You’ll also get a lot more experience from working at that small company as you’ll probably get a good taste for all parts of the business. Plus you’re young – you’ll get your chance to take a shot at the big boys later in life. Plus if someone turns you down because of your age, was that really the kind of company you wanted to be associated with anyway?

The web community lock-outs: ah, the alcohol problem. Unfortunately a huge number of web meetups revolve around a beer rather than a coffee (which would avoid the 18/21 issues). While it’s an inadvertent mistake, it does raise a good point – why can’t more of the events be all-ages or at least take into account that people who are underage might want to come? In my hometown of NZ, a then-16-year old student set up a local version of Barcamp in 2006 at his high school. An open (and free event), it’s been a huge success. (Though people sometimes forgot that Ludwig was underage when they suggested drinks afterwards!)

Employees and clients: a former boss set up his own design business when he was 28 and swears his age went against him until he was in his mid 30s! The only thing someone can do (other than looking older) is by being utterly convincing in terms of experience (with as many work examples as possible, articulate, and confident). David Karp is amazing in terms of being able to ‘wear’ his experience in a way that makes you forget about his age.

Finally: I’m sad to see how the backstream at conferences seems to bring out the immature flamer mentality. 140 characters isn’t enough space for constructive criticism. It’d be interesting to see whether the flamers had achieved anything near what Anna had at her age ….

I find it very upsetting that people have reacted to your talks in that way, also very worrying! I have been working in the industry since I was 14 and the ageism was a huge issue when I started, as time goes on it does seem to be improving but not at the rate I would nave hoped for.

Part of the issue is that as an industry there are a lot of people out doing bad work and passing it off as good work. Most clients sadly won’t know the difference :( as an industry having some form of client education (some thing like gas safe for example) would be very helpful!

One issue with being under 16 is contract law. Many areas of contract law require you to be 18 (eg not a legal minor) before you can legally sign. This could lead to enforceability issues (eg purchasing hosting, client contracts etc). Not to mention the issues regarding recovering debts etc.

To finish on a positive note, I have found the industry on the whole to be very open, in terms of age, disability, sexuality etc people tend to be very open. / positive on the whole. There is certainly room for improvement though!

Hope that helps

Jamie + Lion

When I was 18 I moved to a proper tech city and had a resume that just omitted an education section and focused on experience and a long “skills” section which was mostly stuff I had learned on my own and through open source development.

Every job I had from 18-21 assumed I was much older than I was. In the USA you aren’t legally allowed to ask an applicant their age and after I was hired people couldn’t believe I was that young.

I was lucky because I didn’t look young for my age and I could let people’s assumptions run rampant but I would have had a really hard time starting out if that wasn’t the case.

I think that’s counter productive if we want to help combat age bias. The only way to build respect for the younger age group is for them to prove that they’re capable. Hiding the problem is not going to make it go away. You might lose a few clients/roles in the short term, but that’s a risk you’re going to have to take if you want to fight for the greater good.